爱华网内贾德舌战CNN名嘴拉里金
一直以来，在我的印象中，伊朗总统内贾德是个思想混乱、行为怪异、不负责任、口无遮拦，经常在国际社会惹事生非的主，我甚至曾一度认为伊朗人民选这么个人当总统简直是自作孽。可没想到啊，没想到……他近日接受美国有线电视新闻网（即CNN）“拉里•金访谈”节目专访的表现，那可真是超级棒啊！他的修养、风度、睿智、雄辩、胆略以及正义感、使命感都不得了，实属当今世界顶级人物。我感觉自己被主流媒体多年来刻意编辑、选择性播出内贾德的“片言只语”及视频、图片形象给忽悠了。与此相反，拉里•金这个戴着西方“普世价值”光环，有着“正义化身”之誉的美国“国嘴”，这次被内贾德打回原形，露出了自己偏执、傲慢、无知、无赖和小丑的真实嘴脸。
可别小看了这个拉里·金（LarryKing），此人在美国传媒界数一数二，被誉为“广播访问节目的拳王阿里”。1985年6月，拉里•金开始主持CNN的王牌节目《拉里•金访谈》，他入行以来做过逾4万个访问，从福特总统开始，每一任美国总统都接受过他访问，拉里•金访问过的名人红星则数不胜数。在美国，拉里•金的访谈节目平均每晚的观众人数都超过100万。作为金牌主持人，拉里•金在美国被推崇备至，传媒界流传这样一句话：“美国人可以不相信总统，但不能不相信拉里•金。”他的提问以大胆尖锐著称，而且总是寻根究底，不管受访者是谁，他都理直气壮地“拷问”对方，一张“铁嘴”什么都敢问。他曾经透露自己成功的秘诀，就是在做访问之前很少甚至完全不做准备，经常临场发挥，因为他认为“最好的访问者是对受访者知道得最少的人。我讨厌问自己已经知道答案的问题，而且我从不怕问可能很愚蠢的问题”，这种方法被传媒界认为“的确不是一般人能轻易学会”的。拉里•金在美国风头出尽，所获荣誉奖章能装一箩筐，传媒界无人能望其项背。
毫无疑问，拉里•金是美国传媒业大腕，也是美国的重量级人物，他对伊朗总统内贾德的“访谈”非同寻常，加之美国和伊朗互相“掐”了30多年，这几年更是剑拔弩张，此时的拉里•金“访谈”内贾德完全可视为美伊之间舆论战的尖峰对决。从他们“谈话”的内容和态度看，也的确尖锐对立，火药味甚浓，要不是在做“访谈”节目的话，这两个“宝贝”不打起来才怪。
言归正传，拉里•金不愧是高手中的高手，他向内贾德提出的问题几乎都有“陷阱”，而且设有“套中套”、“计中计”，偷换概念、避实就虚这类名堂更是层出不穷，可以肯定一般“人物”将挺不过拉里•金的第一回合。如他的第一个问题“你喜欢来美国吗？”就很难回答且暗含“杀机”，如果内贾德说喜欢，拉里•金将大侃美国的“文明和进步”，以及美国对全世界的“影响力”、“吸引力”，肯定会说：“瞧，连伊朗总统都向往美国”，顺便再“恶心”一下伊朗存在的“神权”和伊朗政府统治下人民的“不自由”、“不幸福”，甚至可能接着提出“既然喜欢有没有考虑将来移民美国”这类令内贾德怒不可遏又不能发作的问题；如果内贾德说“不喜欢”，那拉里•金又会说“看来你对美国的怨恨之深已使你丧失了理性，你今天接受采访恐怕有借机攻击美国的意图，你的言论将很难客观公正。”
没想到内贾德那是何等人物，不愧为“精英”中的“精英”，他的“战法”是“诱敌深入”、“将计就计”、“避虚就实”、“直击要害”，同时辅以反诘、质疑、质问，打乱拉里•金的阵脚，让他失语、失态，以致失控，最后诱使拉里•金说出内贾德他自己想说的话。请看内贾德是怎么回答前述拉里•金的第一个问题，他避过了“喜欢”和“不喜欢”的两难选择，而是说在联合国这样一个大平台上各国交流、讨论很必要，他看重这次联合国大会各国首脑的一般性辩论，这种回答让拉里•金毫无文章可做。访谈中亮点多多，最精彩的是美国和以色列能否代表世界的争辩；最惊人的是关于欧洲人对犹太人犯了大罪，但到头来欧美却以在巴勒斯坦土地上为犹太人建国来为自己赎罪的对白；最尊严的是说伊朗对核武器没有兴趣，认为原子弹没有用，还将坚决推动世界解除美国和以色列及其他有核国家的核武；最解气的是说以色列现总理本来就是个“杀人犯”，美国政府在支持有罪的以色列政府，美国自己也有灭绝印第安人的不光彩历史；最可笑的是拉里•金也稀里糊涂地说以色列现总理是独裁者，每当理缺辞穷、恼羞成怒、呼吸困难时就插播广告，以便回避问题和找台阶下。
总之内贾德舌战拉里•金的访谈节目太有看头，还是请各位网友直接欣赏吧！
视频（含中文字幕）链接：
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/G533ks4XZ5E/
附件：伊朗总统内贾德接受美国有线电视新闻网拉里-金专访节目（中英文对白）
KING: Mr. President, thank you for coming back to LARRY KINGLIVE. Do you like coming to America?
拉里-金(后简称为金)：总统先生，感谢你回到拉里-金实况。你喜欢来美国吗？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： In the name of God, thecompassionate, the merciful, I’d like to say hello to youraudience, to you and your colleagues, and ask Almighty God to bringhealth, prosperity and success to all people and nations andcountries。
内贾德(后简称为内，通过翻译)：奉至仁至慈真主之名，我想向你的听众、你、你的同事问好。请求万能的真主给所有人和所有国家带来健康、繁荣、成功。
I am interested in traveling to all parts of the world to meetwith people. The United Nations is an important forum for theexchange of international ideas on how to run international affairsand naturally people like myself should be actively involved in itswork。
我对前往世界各地和人们会面很感兴趣。联合国是一个就如何管理国际事务进行国际想法交流的一个重要论坛。很自然，像我这样的人应当积极参与它的工作。
KING: Let’s get to some current issues. A few days ago, youreleased the American hiker, but there is still two captives inIran. How long will they be detained?
金：让我们来谈一些时事议题。就在几天前，你释放了一名美国徒步者，但仍有两名徒步者被伊朗关押。他们要被关押多长时间？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Well, they crossed ourborders, violated the borders, and a judge will take care of theircase。
内：哦，他们越过了我们的边境，侵犯了我们的边境，一位法官将处理他们的案件。
KING: But you did release one. Is there any chance in the nameof goodwill that you’ll release the others? There were two hikerswho made a mistake。
金：但你已经释放了其中的一人。是否存在你以良好愿望的名义释放其他两位徒步者的可能？两位徒步者只是犯了一个错误。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That one person was releasedon bail because of mercy, compassion and as a humanitarian gesture.As for the others, yes, there is a chance, but the judge has totake care of the case。
内：一个人已因为同情、怜悯、作为一个人道主义姿态获得保释。对于其他两人来说，仍存在保释的可能性，但法官得处理该案。
KING: Do you know when?
金：你知道是什么时候吗？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends on the judge whowill need to handle the case, issue a verdict. There’s a processthat must go through。
内：这取决于处理此案的法官，给出判决，必须走这套法律过程。
KING: Do you have any influence in that process?
金：你是否对这一过程有任何影响力？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no influence over it.But I have suggested for the lady, in her case, that it be regardedwith clemency, mercy and more kindness and compassion to allow herto return to her family。
内：我对此没有影响力，但我就女徒步者案件给出了建议，我建议法官对此持宽厚、怜悯和更大的善意、同情心，以允许她返回美国与家人团聚。
KING: What about bail for the other two?
金：其他两人是否也能获得保释？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It is possible. It depends onthe judge。
内：这是可能的，这取决于法官。
KING: Would you -- you’re in New York for a few more days. Youwill address the U.N. tomorrow. Would you meet with their familiesif they asked to meet with you?
金：你是否，你还要纽约呆上数天，你将于明天向联合国发表讲演。如果徒步者的家人要求会见你，你是否会见他们？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our program is closed rightnow in terms of the fact that it is a tight schedule. But I’d haveto consider it. And having said that, I have received norequests。
内：我们的活动安排现在已经结束了，我们的时间表很紧，但我愿意考虑这件事。虽然如此，我并没有收到请求。
KING: But if they did request, might you consider it?
金：但是如果他们确实提出了请求，你是否会考虑呢？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I would positively takeit into consideration。
内：是的，我将会积极考虑他们的请求。
KING: That is hopeful。
金：这是有希望的。我们询问了徒步者鲍尔和法塔尔的家人，他们的母亲向你提出了这个问题。这两人的母亲仍在纽约。
总统先生，当你上一次12个月前在纽约参加联合国大会时，你承诺将要求司法部门加快处理我们孩子的案件，就案件表现出最大的宽大。这并没有发生，我们的心碎了。当你返回德黑兰，你是否会再次向司法部门提出要求？
We asked the families -- the families of Shane Bauer and JoshFattal, the two prisoners, and their mothers passed this questionalong to you. This is from the mothers of the two still there。
Mr. President, the last time you were in New York for the U.N.General Assembly 12 months ago, you promised to ask the judiciaryto expedite our children’s case and show maximum leniency. Ourhearts are broken that this has not happened. Please, will you makethis request again when you return to Tehran?
内：我认为，这确实发生了。所有的国家在对待非法越境边境方面都制订有严格的法律，对这样的行为都要进行严惩。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that it did happen. Inall countries you have very strict laws and strict punishments forborder crossings that are illegal。
金：你是否提出要求-他们询问你是否要求司法部门处理此案，他们想念他们的家人。
KING: But did you make the request -- they’re asking if youwould make the request of the judiciary to move it along. They misstheir families。
内：我认为世界上有非常多的犯人。我是否要亲自就他们中的每个人提出要求？
现在，虽然这样说了，我已要求司法部门仔细研究三名美国徒步者的案件。你知道，世界上有许多犯人。在美国就有250万犯人。
我是否可以要求美国的司法部门表现出宽大？事实上，我将抓住这个机会，要求美国的司法部门对美国的250万犯人表现出宽大。他们有配偶，他们有母亲、孩子、父母。许多人很年轻。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that there are manyprisoners in the world. Do I have to make a personal request foreveryone?
Now, having said that, I have requested the judiciary to look atthe case of these three people’s cases carefully but, you know,there are many prisoners in the world. Here in the United States,there are 2.5 million。
Can I request the judiciary here in the United States to showleniency and I would, in fact, seize this opportunity here and askthe judicial body of the United States, judicial leniency, in thecase of the 2.5 million prisoners in this country. They havespouses. They have mothers, children, parents. Many are young。
金：我们将在广告时间后继续与伊朗总统内贾德进行讨论。
KING: We’ll have more with the president of Iran right afterthis。
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
金：我们回到节目，内贾德总统将于明天向联合国大会发表讲演，美国总统也将向联合国大会发表讲演。我们将随后谈到这一话题。
罗伯特-莱文森的情况如何？他是前联邦调查局特工，他已在伊朗失踪三年了。人们从未听到有关他的消息。首先，你是否能告诉我们，他是否还活着，他的状况是否还好？
KING: We’re back with President Ahmadinejad. He will address theU.N. General Assembly tomorrow, as will the president of the UnitedStates。
We’ll ask about that in a minute。
What about Robert Levinson? This is the former FBI agent. He’sbeen missing in Iran for three -- over three years, hasn’t beenheard from. First, can you tell us, is he alive? Is he OK?
内：我认为我们应当向联邦调查局提出这个问题。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think we should ask thatquestion from the FBI。
金：但是他是在你的国家里--
KING: But he’s in your country --
内：我怎么会知道？我怎么应当知道？有许多人来到伊朗，随后就离开了。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： How would I know? How am Isupposed to know? There are many individuals, many people who cometo our country and then leave。
金：所以说你不知道他在哪里？
KING: So you have no idea where he is?
内：他来了又走了，和平常一样，我不知道他在哪里。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He came and he left. As usual.No。
金：他的家人称，他的家人称，你的政府承诺将就莱文森的失踪提交一份全面报告，他们在此之后未听到任何消息。
KING: His family says -- his family that they were promised afull report on his disappearance from your government and they havenever heard anything。
内：我们从未作出过那样的承诺，我们同意与美国政府成立一个联合的信息和情报委员会以收集有关他下落的信息。我们已表示希望尽快成立这个委员会，我们表示，我们作好了加入委员会的准备。如果美国联邦调查局愿意提供他伊朗之行目的的更多信息、他知道什么信息、他的其它目的地是哪里，我们可能会就该案提供进一步的帮助。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We never made that promise. Weagreed to have a joint information and intelligence committee withthe U.S. government to gather information about his whereabouts, onhis whereabouts, and we have expressed hope that this committeewill soon be held and we express our preparedness to be part of thecommittee。
Now if the FBI were to give more information about the purposeof this trip and what information he had and where his otherdestinations were, we might be able to assist further in thecase。
金：但你不知道他在哪里？
KING: But you have no idea where he is?
内：你是否有任何信息？我和你一样，我对联邦调查局的项目一无所知。我不知道联邦调查局在世界各地从事什么样的活动。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you have any information?I’m like you, I have no idea what the FBI programs are. I don’tknow what the FBI does around the world。
金：我们昨天与他的妻子克里斯丁进行了交谈。她询问你是否能提供伊朗官员与联邦调查局会谈和共享信息的时间和日期？换句话说，她在说，联邦调查局愿意与你坐下来谈。你是否能给她一个时间和日期？
KING: We talked with -- well, we talked with his wife yesterday,Christine, Mrs. Levinson. She asked that you give her a time anddate for officials to meet with the FBI and share information。
In other words, she is saying the FBI is willing to sit downwith your people. Can you give her a time and date?
内：是的，我接受并同意这一点。当人们旅行遇到问题，失踪，这使我们感到悲伤。这很可怕。我认为，当所有的情报组织的活动更加透明，建立在更加人道主义的基础之上，这样的问题将不会出现，但我将建议，情报委员会应当联合举行，伊朗和美国的代表可以坐下来，帮助确定他的下落。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I accept and agree withthat. It saddens us when people travel, run into problems,disappear. It’s awful。
I think that if all intelligence organizations work moretransparently and based on more humanitarian principles, theseproblems would not arise, but I would recommend that thatintelligence committee be held jointly so that the representativesof Iran and the United States can sit together and help trace hiswhereabouts。
金：你知道，他的女儿将于周六结婚。
KING: You know, his daughter is getting married Saturday。
内：我就她结婚表示祝贺。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I congratulate her on hermarriage。
金：如果她的父亲能够出席，那将是非常美好的。
KING: It will be nice if her father were there --
内：我对她表示同情，肯定，她父亲能出席将是一件很好的事情，我希望那样的事情能够发生。我认为，美国联邦调查局应当在这件事更加积极，找到他们的特工。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And I sympathize with her.Definitely, it would have been very good. I wish that it canhappen. I think the FBI should be more active in this case and tofind their agent。
金：你知道，总统先生，如果那是你的孩子，如果你的孩子之一越过了另一国的边境并遭到扣押，你将会非常担心，你将要求尽快处理案件，是否是这样？
KING: You know, Mr. President, if it were your children -- ifone of your children crossed the border of another country and werebeing held, you would be very concerned and you would press theissue, would you not?
内：如果我的孩子违反了法律，正义必须得到申张，因为法律确保安全、稳定。必须遵守法律，如果违反了法律，就不会有安全了。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： If my child violates a law,justice must be served. Because law ensures security. Andstability. And laws must be observed because if they are to beviolated, there shall be no security。
金：我们回来将讨论更多议题。不要走开。
KING: We’ll be right back with more. Don’t go away。
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
金：我们再次回来，我们正在采访伊朗总统内贾德。奥巴马总统和你都在纽约。如果有机会，你是否会会晤奥巴马？
KING: We’re back with the president of Iran, PresidentAhmadinejad。
With President Obama here and you’re here, would you meet withhim if the opportunity arose?
内：这得看情况。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends。
金：取决于什么情况？
KING: On?
内：我们已宣布，我们作好了在联大与他进行自由会谈的准备。
我认为，在其它成员国和媒体之前坐下来进行，讨论我们的观点将是非常好的事情。在联合国进行交流。我认为，这将是非常积极的，因为所有的人都能听到我们所要说的东西。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We have announced that we areprepared to freely talk with him at the U.N. General Assembly。
I think it would be very good to sit before members of otherstates and the media and to discuss our views. To have an exchangeat the United Nations. I think that would be very positive so thateveryone can hear what we have to say。
金：希拉里国务卿称，制裁措施正在重创伊朗经济，甚至伊朗前总统拉夫桑贾尼称，制裁措施很严重，不能忽视它们。你是否对制裁措施的效果和仍在持续的效果感到担心？
KING: Secretary of State Clinton says sanctions are biting youreconomy. Even the former president, Rafsanjani, said that thesanctions are serious, can’t be dismissed. Are you worried abouttheir effect and their continuing effect?
内：在我看来，你提出了数个议题。问题是美国政府为什么在联合国安理会制裁措施之外对伊朗施加了额外的制裁？这不是非法措施吗？
这是否是美国人民对伊朗人民、更为重要的是，这是否是美国政府对伊朗政府敌意的表示？
这是一个议题。第二个议题是，对我们来说，制裁措施真得不重要，因为我们在过去三十年里一直遭到制裁。此外，我们的经济也不是建立在美国经济的基础之上的，它是一个自力更生的经济，因为我们能够满足自己的需求。
令人感兴趣的是，在遭到制裁期间，我们具备了更多的动力来从事那些使我们经济跨越式发展的活动。我们在这方面相当成功。
现在，我们知道，在美国，许多人非常担心，许多人在制裁方面发出了许多噪音，甚至还援引了伊朗国内一些人的说法，这些人看起来对制裁措施损害伊朗的观点持同情立场。
但事实上，我们一点也不担心制裁措施，制裁措施事实上鼓励我们更加坚定地追求我们的经济目标。
美国政府与我们没有任何关系，在过去三十年里没有任何关系。他们采取制裁措施又如何？我们在没有美国的情况下生活了三十多年，我们已取得了进步。
当伊朗在美国的控制之下，它是一个落后的国家。自我们在没有美国的情况下开始生活后，我们已成为一个先进国家。这是否对我们是一件坏事？我认为这是一个积极的步骤。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems to me that you’veraised several issues. The question is why does the U.S. governmentplace sanctions that are over above those specified by the U.N.’sSecurity Council? Is that not an illegal measure?
Is it not indicative of the hostility of the U.S., the Americanpeople, towards the Iranian people and the U.S. administration,more importantly, towards the Iranian government?
That’s one issue. The second issue is that sanctions really areunimportant to us because we have been under sanctions for over 30years. Furthermore, our economy is not based on the economy of theUnited States. It is a self-contained economy, an indigenous-basedeconomy because we are able to provide for our own needs。
And interestingly, in the years of sanctions that have beenimposed on us, we have also had more incentive to engage inactivities that jumpstart and trigger our economy and we’ve beenquite successful。
Now we know here in the United States, many are very concerned-- many have made a lot of noise over the sanctions and have evenidentified people in Iran who seem to sympathize with views herethat sanctions harm Iran。
But really, that’s of no concern to us because in -- on theground sanctions have, in fact, encouraged us to be firmer in thepursuit of our economic goals。
The United States government has no relations with us. Has hadnone for over 30 years. So what is it that they are sanctioning? Wehave lived without the United States for over 30 years. And we haveadvanced。
When Iran was under the yoke of the United States, it was abackward country. Since we started living without the UnitedStates, we have become an advanced country. Is that bad for us? Ithink it’s quite a positive -- step to take。
金：你是否理解有关对伊朗核武器的担心？考虑到地区国家的所有敌对情况，你是否理解有关伊朗拥有核武器的担心？这可能会引发一些你可能从未启动的一些事情。
KING: Do you not understand the fears about nuclear -- nuclearweaponry in your country? With all the hostility in the region,don’t you understand the fears over your having nuclear weapons?That could trigger something that you might not even start。
内：谁在担心？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is concerned?
金：世界在担心。
KING: The world is concerned。
内：谁是世界？谁代表了世界？美国？它的朋友？不，世界是一个非常大的地方。美国官员的错误在于他们视自己为世界，但他们并不是世界。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is the world? Whorepresents the world? The United States? Its friends? No, the worldis a very big place. And what U.S. officials are wrong about isthat they see themselves as the world but they are not。
金：好吧，以色列总理内塔尼亚胡最近参与我们的节目。他说，我引用他的话“人类面临的最大威胁是伊朗将获得核武器，人类，这就是世界。
如果以色列对此持强烈的看法，你对他们不作出直接的保证，你是否担心他们可能会首先发起军事打击行动？
KING: All right. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu was a guestrecently on our program and he said, quote, "The greatest threatfacing humanity." Humanity. That’s the world. "Is that Iran wouldacquire nuclear weapons."
If Israel feels that strongly and you don’t directly assurethem, don’t you fear that they might do a first strike?
内：所以你认为，我们感到担心，我们应当对减轻内塔尼亚胡的恐慌和担心感到担心？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So you think that we areconcerned -- we should be concerned about allaying Mr. Netanyahu’sfears and concerns?
金：是的。
KING: Yes。
内：我们为什么要为他作那样的事？他是谁？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why should we be doing thatfor him? Who is he?
金：他是一个国家的元首
KING: He’s the head of a country --
内：首先，他是谁？他是一个老练的杀人犯。世界上所有的独裁者曾谴责过其他人，他是独裁者中的一位。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is he in the first place,to begin with? He is a skilled killer. All dictators in the worldhave condemned others, and he’s one of many of them。
金：也许
KING: Maybe --
内：他应当为杀害巴勒斯坦人、封锁加沙而受到审判。对加沙的封锁违反了法律和联合国宪章。
他应当为杀害妇女和儿童而遭到审判，你想减轻他的恐惧和担心？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He should be put on trial forkilling Palestinians, for placing Gaza under siege, which isagainst the law and against the spirit of the charter of the UnitedNations。
He should be put on trial for killing women and children, andyou want to allay his fears and concerns here?
金：我想减轻你的担心。
KING: I want to allay yours。
内：允许我向你问一个问题。美国媒体为何对减轻纳塔尼亚胡的担心和恐惧如此负责？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me to ask a questionfrom you. Why does U.S. media feel so responsible for allaying Mr.Netanyahu’s concerns and fears?
金：因为
KING: Because --
内：为什么？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why?
金：如果他将他的担心提升到另一个层次，对你发出威胁呢？你难道不担心他吗？你，伊朗？
KING: What if he took his concerns to the next step andthreatened you? So shouldn’t you be concerned about him? You,Iran?
内：所以你是在担心他可能会发动战争？有人想发动战争，他们在寻找借口，所以你对此感到担心。
我认为，控制像内塔尼亚胡这样的人和政权意图的方法就是停止支持他。美国政府应当停止使用美国纳税人的钱来支持他。
美国有三千万、四千万穷人，4百万人无家可归。美国为什么要花钱让内塔尼亚胡获得武器，用不同的借口来攻击黎巴嫩、威胁伊朗？这很可怕，非常可怕。
金：总统先生，所有这些问题看起来都集中在，他是一个独裁者，你是一个挑起事端的独裁者，如果你拥有核武器，他们害怕核武器，你将会遇到问题，这将给世界造成问题。
你是否会在这里称，你现在没有将来也不会有核武器？请简单一点。
KING: All of these problems, Mr. President, seem to centeraround -- we quibble, he’s a dictator, you’re a dictator whostarted -- if you have a nuclear weapon and they fear a nuclearweapon, you could have a problem that creates a problem for theworld。
Would you say here now you do not and will not have nuclearweapons? Be simple。
内：我们的第一个问题是谁是你再次提及的世界？你的意思是内塔尼亚胡？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our first question is who isthe world again that you speak of? You mean Mr. Netanyahu?
金：不，如果所有人
KING: No. If anybody --
内：谁是世界？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who’s the world?
金：如果有人向其他人投下核弹，整个世界都将受到影响，你明白这一点。
KING: If anybody drops a nuclear bomb on anybody, the wholeworld is involved. You know that。
内：请允许我，请允许我，你知道，在民调中，海湾地区百分之八十八的受访者支持伊朗的核活动，所以，谁在担心？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me, allow me here. Youare aware that in polls, 88 percent of the people in the regionsupport Iran’s nuclear activities. So who’s concerned?
金：什么样的活动？
KING: What activities?
内：这是第一个问题，这是伊朗的核活动，除了犹太复国主义政权和一些美国当局的担心之外，在海湾地区没有人表示对伊朗的核活动感到恐惧。
我们没有寻求核武，我们对此没有兴趣，我们认为核武器是没有用的。我们坚定地要求犹太复国主义政权和美国解除核武。
对世界构成威胁的是美国政府和犹太复国主义政权所拥有的核弹。如果他们认为发动针对伊朗的宣传就可以基本改变公众舆论，那么他们错了。
我们将在这一议题上持坚定的立场，我们将在所有国际组织中提出这一议题，我们将在核不扩散评估进程中讨论这一议题。核不扩散评估会议通过的会议要求犹太复国主义政权处理它的核武库。
美国政府也必须这样作以确保犹太复国主义政权的核武库被解除，因为那个政权是非法的好战国家。它已证明它对其神经没有足够的控制力。它的支持者美国也是如此，美国平白无故地就在伊拉克和阿富汗发动了战争。
犹太复国主义政府和美国没有掌握核武库的能力。这一点也适用于所有拥有核武器的国家。它们必须解除核武，因为核弹是世界上最糟糕最丑陋的武器。那些拥有核武器的国家必须解除核武。从今以后没有人再有权建造核武。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： This is the first question.It’s Iran’s nuclear activities. No one expresses fear about Iran’snuclear activities in the region except the Zionist regime and thefear of some American authorities。
We are not seeking the bomb. We have no interest in it. And wedo not think that it is useful. We are standing firm over the issuethat both the Zionist regime and the United States governmentshould be disarmed。
The threat to the world are the bombs that the U.S. governmentand the Zionist regime have. If they think that by propagatingagainst Iran that they can basically change their public opinion,they are wrong。
We will stand firm on this issue. We will pursue it in allinternational organizations. We will discuss in the NPT reviewprocess. The Zionist regime was required. And the document ratifiedby the NPT review conference to address its nuclear arsenal。
And so the U.S. government, too, must pursue this idea to ensurethat the Zionist regime’s nuclear arsenal is eliminated becausethis regime is an illegitimate war-waging country. It has alsoproved that it does not have sufficient control over its nerves.And not only that nor does its backer, the United States that getsinto wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just over nothing。
And this government and the United States still does not havethe ability to hold nuclear arsenals. And the same argument holdstrue for all who possess nuclear bombs. They must all disarm.Because the nuclear bomb is the worst and ugliest form of weaponthat there is. And those who have it must disarm. And nobody hasthe right from now on to build nuclear bombs。
金：包括
KING: Including --
内：所以你在这方面的立场很清楚，你必须明白这样的宣传是没有用的。我们没有核弹，那些拥有核弹的国家应当解除核武，而不是指责其他国家拥有或者想拥有核武。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So our position’s very clearon this. You must understand that this propaganda is useless. Wedon’t have the nuclear bomb. Those who have it have to be disarmed,rather than accuse others of having it or wanting it。
金：我们是
KING: We are in -- we are --
内：所有的美国政府和安理会都非常清楚这一点。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： All the U.S. government knowsvery well as does the Security Council that --
金：你的回答太冗长了。
KING: You’re being redundant。
内：伊朗没有核弹，它也不寻求核弹，但我们将持坚定的立场，以确保拥有核武的国家解除核武，它们必须解除核武。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Iran does not have a nuclearbomb and that it is not seeking one. But we will stand firm, standfirm, to make sure they will disarm. They must all disarm。
金：很显然，我们生活在一个恐惧的世界里，良心，你谈论过人权和内塔尼亚胡。伊朗的良心如何？学生，人权捍卫者？你是否应当在那一领域作出改善？伊朗是否有全面的人权？伊朗人是否有权发表自己的看法，举行示威活动？
KING: We’re in a world of fear apparently. Conscience -- youtalked about human rights and Mr. Netanyahu. How about consciencein your country? Students, human rights defenders? Don’t you haveto improve in the area? Aren’t there -- are there full human rightsin Iran? Does everyone in Iran have the right to speak out, toprotest?
内：在世界任何地方，你都会看到那一性质的挑战。在美国也是这样，有必要在这方面采取更多措施。这里是否有全面的人权？我们得运用比较的方法。我不认为，在伊朗，会有一位在办公室工作了五十年的雇员因为发表他或她的看法而遭到解雇，但这样的事情发生在美国。一位有着很深厚工作背景的记者仅仅是因为发表了观点而被迫辞职。这样的事情绝对也永远不会在伊朗发生。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Everywhere in the world, yousee challenges of that nature. In the United States, too, there isneed for more on this front. Isn’t there? So we have to have acomparative skill in our hands. I don’t think, for example, inIran, an employee would be fired after 50 years of serving in anoffice for expressing his opinion or her opinion. But this happenedin your country. A reporter with a rich background was forced outof her work simply because she expressed an opinion. This neverhappened -- would never happen in Iran。
金：从未发生过？
KING: Never happen?
内：现在，在世界各地，我们都有这方面的问题，但这样的事情绝对不会在伊朗发生。虽然如此，我了解世界各地都有这方面的问题，包括美国在内。我们作好在一个论坛上坐下的准备，将我们所有的麻烦放在桌子上，就其进行讨论，一起解决这些问题。
我问你，美国有250万犯人，不是所有的犯人都是杀人犯、谋杀犯或者小偷，其他人是为何入狱的？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Now, everywhere in the world,we have problems. But this would never have happened in Iran.Having said that, I understand all over the world there areproblem, including in the United States. And we are prepared to sitin a forum at a table, place all our troubles on the table anddiscuss it and resolve it together。
I asked you, you have over 2.5 million prisoners here. Not allof them are killers, murderers or thieves. Who are the rest?
金：你是在说我们有政治犯？
KING: Are you saying we have political prisoners?
内贾德：不，这不是我所暗示的，你可以告诉我，他们为何入狱？为什么？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： No, that’s not what I’msuggesting. You can tell me that. Why are they in prison? Why?
金：我没有对每个案件进行过调查，毒品
KING: I haven’t investigated every -- drugs --
内：他们都是小偷吗？他们都是小偷和强盗吗？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Are they all thieves? Are theyall thieves and robbers?
金：严重的毒品问题
KING: Big drug problem。
内：你有这么多的与毒品相关的问题，250万人，百分之一，每100名美国人就有一人在监狱里。为什么？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You have so many drug-relatedproblem, 2.5 million people, one percent -- out of 100 people inthe United States, one person is in prison. Why?
金：我们休息一会，我们将马上回来。
KING: Let me get a break and we’ll come right back。
内：他们都是杀人犯？都是抢劫犯？他们都走私毒品？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Have they all killed? Havethey all robbed? Have they all trafficked drugs?
金：我不知道这与什么有关，好的，我们将马上回来。
KING: I don’t know what that has to do with it. All right, we’llbe right back。
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
金：好的，就人权议题，不过，你必须承认你对学生、言论自由的捍卫者采取了严厉的打击措施，人们因为发表言论、在街头上举行示威活动而遭到逮捕，你不能说，伊朗在人权问题上有一个开放的良心，在人权问题持开放立场。你无法这样说。
KING: All right. On the human rights issue, though, you mustadmit that you have students, defenders of free speech that youhave taken strong actions against, people in jail for just speakingtheir minds, protesting in the streets and arrested. You can’t saythat Iran has opened -- open conscience to human right -- is openfor human rights to all. You can’t say that。
内：甚至在我不在这里的时候，你可以说这样的事情，对吗？所以，你为何在我在这里的时候提及这样的事情？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You can say these things evenif I’m not here, right? So why would you need to mention it while Iam here?
金：因为你是一个国家的元首，而且，
KING: Because you’re the head of the country and --
内贾德：你看来是在审判，你在审判，我问你问题，美国有250万犯人，为什么？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems you are judging. Youare judging. I asked the question. There are 2.5 million prisonershere and why --
金：他们不是因为在街头发表观点而入狱的，对这一议题进行比较性研究，他们不是因为举一个标语牌而入狱的。
KING: They’re not in prison for speaking out on the streets--
KING: -- comparative study of this issue. KING: They’re not inprison for holding up a sign。
内：请允许我，在伊朗，没有人因为参与抗议示活动而入狱，没有人因为参与抗议活动而被送入监狱。人们可以自由地举行抗议活动，但是如果在这里发生了抗议示威活动，有人袭击了警察并杀害了警察，你是否会奖励他们？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me -- in Iran, nobody isin prison because of participating in protests. Nobody went toprison because of participating in protests. Protests are free. Butsay if you had protests here and somebody attacked the police andkilled the police, would you reward them?
金：当然不会。
KING: Of course not。
内：你是否会奖励他们？为什么你会认为伊朗将奖励他们？如果有人违反了法律，案件将交由法官处理，案情将得到研究和审理？为什么美国的犯人入狱是因为法律问题，而伊朗犯人入狱就是非法的？在伊朗也有法律过程。伊朗发生过人们在抗议示威活动时袭击警察的事件，警察提出了控告，法官得处理这些案件。
现在，在美国，你告诉我，那些在监狱里的是罪犯，但在伊朗监狱里的是自由追求者？这很可怕。为什么美国当局总是试图支持那些在伊朗违反法律的人？这并不有助于美国的形象，只会恶化美国的形象。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Would you reward them? Whywould you expect Iran to reward them? If anyone violates the law,the case has to go before a judge and it has to be examined andtaken care of? Why is it only in the United States that prisonersare in prison for legal issues, legally; whereas in Iran, they’rein prison illegally? In Iran, too, there’s a legal process. There’sbeen incidents where there have been protests and people attack thepolice. The police file complaints and the judge takes care of theissue。
Now, in the United States, you’re telling me those in the prisonare criminals, but in Iran those who are in prison are freedomseekers? That’s awful. Why is it that U.S. authorities are alwaystrying to support and back people who violate the law in Iran? Thisdoesn’t help the image of the United States. It just worsensit。
金：我们将无法解决这一问题。在那一领域的另一问题：你是否允许伊朗进行石刑？那名妇女获得了很多的关注？你是否允许石刑在伊朗合法？
KING: We’re not going to resolve that. One other thing on thatarea; do you still permit stoning in Iran? We’ve had a lot ofattention paid to that lady -- about that lady. Do you permitstoning lawful in Iran?
内：我认为我在过去几天已向记者们就此给出了解释。那名妇女的案件还没有完全审理完毕，还没有就此作出判决。她被控杀害了她的丈夫。我认为如果有人被控谋杀了她的丈夫，人们就会涌上街头，举行支持她的集会？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that I have explainedthis in the past couple of days to a number of reporters. Thislady’s case has not been completely examined yet. No verdict hasbeen issued yet. She is accused of being -- of murdering herhusband. And I don’t think in the world if someone is accused ofmurdering their husband, people would pour on the streets and rallyin support of her。
金：如果他们将对她实施石刑，人们将会支持她。
KING: If they were going to stone her, they would。
内：她被控谋杀了她的丈夫，还没有下达判决，没有下达判决，没有刑罚。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： She has been accused of themurder of her husband. There is no verdict issued. No verdict, nosentence has been passed。
金：我所问的是
KING: All I asked was --
内：这根本与石刑没有关系，根本没有作出石刑的判决。德国有人发表了这样的不实传闻。我们的司法部门已表示那一传闻不实。
但我想向你提一个问题，拉里-金先生，如果可以的话，我们过去这个时候曾在一起。在匹兹堡举行过20国集会，10万人举行了示威活动以抗议20国集团的经济政策。警方对他们发动了猛烈的攻击，许多人遭到痛殴，警方向他们泼热水，许多人遭到逮捕。你在告诉我，抗议示威活动在美国是自由的吗？
所以在美国，你是否认为人们可以聚集在街头，抗议犹太复国主义政权，10万人？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And it is not about a stoningcase at all. There’s no stoning sentence here at all. A person inGermany made this claim, which was untrue. Our judiciary also saidit was a false statement。
But I would like to ask a question to you, Mr. Larry King, if Imay. Last year, we were here the same time. In Pittsburgh, therewas a session. The Group 20; over 100,000 people protested againstthe economic policies of the G-20. The police attacked themviolently. Many were beaten up with -- or hot water was thrown ontheir bodies and many were arrested. And you’re telling me thatprotests are free in the United States?
So here in the United States, do you think people can pour onthe streets and protest against the Zionist regime, 100,000people?
KING: I’ve got a time -- I’ve got to take a break. We’ll beright back。
金：我们再次回到节目，你是否对美国有关在世贸遗址附近修建清真寺的争议有何看法？
KING: We’re back with the president of Iran. Do you have anopinion about the controversy in the United States over thebuilding of that Islamic Mosque near where the events of 9/11 tookplace?
内：我对此没有看法。如果要建设一座建筑物，市政当局或者市当局要对此进行研究，随后告诉人们他们的想法和决定，所以决定应由该市的人民和市当局作出。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no opinion on it. If abuilding is to be built, the municipal authorities or theauthorities for the city have to examine it and then tell peoplewhat they think and what the decision is. So the decision is forthe people of this city and its authorities to make。
金：你
KING: Do you --
内：我能就此作出什么决定？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： What decision can I make overit?
金：你可能对此有看法。
KING: You might have an opinion。
内：我对此没有任何看法，我认为，作为一个基本规则，任何人都应当尊重祈祷场所、宗教场所和神圣的书籍。这是我的理解。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I don’t have any opinion onit. I think that everybody should respect, as a general rule,places of worship, the sanctities that human beings have, and torespect divine books. That I understand。
金：中东问题会谈将很快再次在中东举行，你对我们在那一地区看到和平是否持乐观态度？
KING: Talks are about to take place again in the Mideast, aboutthe Mideast. Do you have any optimism that we will see peace inthat region ever?
内：是的，我非常乐观。没有希望，我们将无法更加努力地创造更好的生活。我认为，如果把人们的权利还给他们，和平将会到来。如果巴勒斯坦人民的国家主权得到承认，那里的问题将会得到解决。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes. I am very optimistic.Without hope, we cannot try harder to build a better life. I thinkif people’s rights are given to them, peace will come. If the rightto national sovereignty of the people of Palestine is recognized,the problems there will be resolved。
金：以色列安全的保证和承认以色列将如何处理？这应得到解决？我的意思是，这是事情的两个方面，是否是这样？不是只有一方应作出让步？这是一个双方的议题。
KING: How about the guarantee of the safety of Israel and therecognition that Israel is a country? Does that have to be solved?I mean, is -- this is both sides, isn’t it? It’s not just one sidehas to give in to create peace. It’s a two-sided issue。
内：你的意思是我们应当坐下来，为巴勒斯坦人民决定他们要什么？我认为巴勒斯坦人民应当就此作出决定。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you mean that here insteadwe should sit and decide for the Palestinian people what theyshould want? I think the Palestinian people should decide aboutthat --
金：承认另一个国家？好的，我们只剩下很少的时间了。我们将马上回来。
KING: -- recognize another state? All right. We only have alittle time left. We’ll be right back with our remainingmoments。
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
金：我们只剩下很少的时间。菲德尔-卡斯特罗不是资本家，你昨天称，资本主义是世界的一个主要问题。卡斯特罗对你否认犹太大屠杀持批评立场。他说，伊朗应当试图去理解反犹太主义的独特历史？你将如何作出回应？卡斯特罗肯定不是以色列的朋友。
(NEWS BREAK) KING: We have only a few momentsleft. Fidel Castro, who is not a capitalist -- yesterday you saidcapitalism is the major problem in the world. Fidel Castro wascritical of you for denying the Holocaust. He said that Iran shouldtry to understand the unique history of anti-Semitism. How do you’respond to Castro? Certainly not a friend of Israel。
内：除了这一新闻中有关犹太复国主义政权的议题之外，卡斯特罗昨天向我发了一信息，称那一声明不属实，他的声明被错误解读了，他说的不是媒体所报道的，我对这一说法不抱任何意见。
但我想问美国为何如此坚决来保护犹太复国主义政权？美国政府与远在1万公里之遥的犹太复国主义政权有何关系，美国有什么必要支持它？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Aside related to the Zionistregime issue this news -- Mr. Castro sent a message to me yesterdayand said it was untrue, this statement, that his statements wereinterpreted differently, that he had said something different. So Ihave no opinion here on this statement。
But I’d like to ask why is there so much insistence in theUnited States to absolutely defend the Zionist regime? What is therelationship between the U.S. government, 10,000 kilometer acrossthe ocean from the Zionist regime, and the need to support it?
金：因为有大量的犹太人仅仅因为是犹太人而遭到屠杀，七百万、八百万犹太人遭到屠杀。作为一个人道主义国家，我们对此很关注。许多犹太人来到这里生活。许多犹太人在以色列创造了一个国家，想在那里和平地生活。
你是否知道，卡斯特罗称，你应当认识到世界仍然存在反犹主义，我们应当对此感到关切。
KING: Because a massive group of people were annihilated justfor being what they were. Seven Million were killed, eight million.So as a humanitarian country, we care about this. And many Jewscame here to live. And many Jews created a country in Israel andwanted to live in peace。
Don’t you -- now, Castro did say you should recognize anti-Semitism exists in the world, and we all should be concerned aboutit。
内：这是否是一个真正的议题，美国政府想保护人权？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Is that the real issue, thatthe U.S. government wants to defend human rights?
金：当然。
KING: Of course。
内：那些人是在哪里被杀害的？他们是在巴勒斯坦被杀害的吗？是被巴勒斯坦人杀害的吗？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Where were these peoplekilled? Were they killed in Palestine? By the hands ofPalestinians?
金：他们在哪里被杀害并不重要，事实是他们遭到了屠杀。
KING: It doesn’t matter where they were killed, it’s the factthat they were killed。
内：哦，那么一百万伊拉克人被杀就可以吗？如果伊拉克人决定到美国来，占领美国，这是否被允许？他们是在伊拉克被杀的，你将允许他们来占领美国吗？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Oh. Then it’s all right for amillion Iraqi people to be killed and then, would it be OK if theydecided to come and occupy the United States? They were killed inIraq. Would you allow them to come occupy the United States?
金：你是在说美国犯下了种族屠杀的罪行，你是在说美国犯下了种族屠杀的罪行？
KING: You’re not saying the United States committed genocide?You’re saying the United States committed genocide?
内：这是一个单独的讨论，是的，这样的情况在伊拉克和阿富汗都发生了。但它是单独的议题。我想问你，如果在一个国家，一些人的权利遭到侵犯，他们遭到压迫，按照你的想法，如果你的说法是正确的话，这是否意味着他们可以去占领另一块土地？这是否符合逻辑？如果我们按照这种逻辑行事，世界还会有安全吗？
1亿人或者8千万人在第二次世界大战中丧生，如果他们要占领世界各地的二十个国家，那将是非常可怕的。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That’s a separate discussion.And, yes, it did happen in both Iraq and Afghanistan. But that’s aseparate issue. I like to ask you, if in a country someone’s rightsare violated, they’re oppressed, assuming that your assumption,your statement is correct, does that imply that they can go andoccupy another land? Is there any logic in that? If we were tofollow that logic, will there be any security left in theworld?
In World War II, 100 million -- or 80 million people werekilled. If they were to go occupy 20 countries around the world,that would have been terrible。
金：以色列是一个合法国家。
KING: Israel is a legal state。
内：问题在于，问题是，你刚才说这是因为犹太大屠杀，你为何改变了说法？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： The question is -- come on.The question -- you just said yourself it’s over the Holocaust. Whyare you changing your statement?
金：你是在说
KING: You were saying --
内：我的问题是美国如此坚决保护以色列的利益是什么？在世界许多地方，人们的人权遭到侵犯。你知道有多少美国印第安人被屠杀？你是否知道？
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： My question is what are theinterests of the United States to -- in absolutely defending them.There are many parts of the world where human rights are violated.Do you know how many American Indians were killed? Do you know ornot?
金：我知道，我们的时间到了。
KING: I know. We’re out of time。
内：你是一名记者，你应当有这些问题的答案。
AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You’re a reporter. You shouldhave the answers to these。
金：我们没有时间了，我们明年将与伊朗总统再次进行讨论。我是拉里-金，不要走开。
KING: We’re out of time. We’ll pick this up next year with thepresident of Iran. I’m Larry King. Don’t go away。
(点评：内贾德舌战CNN名嘴，真是酣畅淋漓，将美国政治集团假人权真霸权，假民主真专制的霸权主义嘴脸，以及美国偏执媒体一直对伊朗和其他非美势力国家的傲慢偏见与偏执自大的画皮揭露得干净彻底。
可以清楚地看到，内贾德对拉里金的反击，立足于以彼之矛攻彼之盾，用美国在嘴上无耻宣扬的所谓“民主自由”来揭破他自己国内乱局假象，用美国在嘴上无耻宣扬的所谓“关心人权”来揭破其为以色列和美国国内政治经济集团联合体谋取私利，不惜损害世界和地区安全整体利益的叵测用心和肮脏勾当。
正所谓“多行不义必自毙”，除了几个受到美国收买或裹胁，甘心充当打手掮客的仆从国家，越来越多的国家和人民看清美国的霸权主义行径的嘴脸和真实目的，美国国内政治经济集团联合体迷惑诱骗美国人民，妄图绑架控制世界为其一己之私牟利的幻梦迷局终将破灭。)
