爱华网又一次！央视记者王冠就所谓“南海仲裁”舌战美国专家。本周，央视记者王冠再次受邀同美政治专家就所谓“南海仲裁”结果展开激烈辩论。面对态度强硬的诸多质问，王冠以事实和法理依据，从国际政治、国际法等角度从容应对，指出对方的逻辑漏洞。看视频，感受激烈交锋：
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中央电视台北美分台 首席政治记者王冠。
美国政治分析专家，国家风险方案公司首席执行官 丹尼尔·瓦格纳。
以下是节目全文。
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：海牙国际仲裁庭 已做出压倒性的裁决
An International tribunal in the Hague has ruled overwhelmingly
反对中国在南海的领土主张
against China's territorial claims in the South China Sea.
北京不但拒绝接受这一裁决
Beijing not only rejects this ruling.
甚至也拒绝参加仲裁庭审
It even refused to participate in the case.
现在就中国南海进行交叉辩论 我们请到了在华盛顿的王冠来参加
To cross talk South China Sea, I am joined by Wang Guan in Washington.
他是中央电视台北美分台的首席政治记者
He is the chief political correspondent of CCTV America
还有来自纽约的丹尼尔 瓦格纳
and in New York, we cross to Daniel Wagner.
他是美国政治分析专家 国家风险方案公司的首席执行官
He is the CEO for Country Risk Solutions.
王冠 我先问问你
Wang, if I can go to you first here.
关于南海仲裁的管辖、参与和执法
The issues of jurisdiction, participation and enforcement
这里有许多人都问这些问题
are all called into question by many people here.
王冠：彼得 如果先把西方主流媒体对此事报道放到一边
Well Peter, if we forget about western mainstream press for a moment
一章一章地仔细读一下联合国海洋法公约
and look at UNCLOS chapter for chapter,
我们会发现 在此案中 从本质上看
we can see that this case, in its essence,
是仲裁庭对没有管辖权的事情做出了裁定
is about a court that ruled on something it has no jurisdiction to rule on,
裁的是一个地缘政治味道十足的由菲律宾对中国提起的案子
based on a geo-politicized lawsuit filed by the Philippines against China.
下面让我来详细解释
I will explain exactly what I mean.
联合国海洋法公约第15部分第3节的第298条
In Part 15, Section 3 and Article 298 of UNCLOS,
规定法院不能裁决主权问题
it says a court can not have jurisdiction to rule on sovereignty.
那么 海牙的仲裁庭是否对主权问题做出了裁决
And did the court in the Hague rule on sovereignty?
从文字上看 没有 但实质上已经就主权做了仲裁
Well, in letter it did not but in spirit it did.
让我们来看看 它裁定了中国南海断续线
Let's look at it. It ruled on nine-dash line,
中国主张在断续段线内对相关岛屿及海域
a claim by Beijing that it has some specific controls of the islands
拥有主权和权益
and their associated territorial waters.
当你裁定那条线非法时 就是把主权非法化
When you delegitimize that line, you delegitimize the sovereignty.
所以 它裁决了主权 此外 仲裁还判定了一些南海地貌的性质
So it is about sovereignty. Also it ruled on the land features,
判定了那些是礁 还是岛
whether they are rocks or islands.
即便在太平岛和永兴岛上
Well, despite the fact that in Taiping Island and Yongxing Island,
有餐厅 银行 甚至有互联网WiFi 和手机4G信号
we have restaurants, banks, even internet WiFi and cellphone LTE signals,
仲裁庭还是裁定 它们不是岛屿
the court ruled that they are not islands
所以不能赋予12海里领海权
so they can not confer 12-nautical mile territorial water.
仍是裁决了主权 而且最终
It is about territory. And eventually,
那份裁决还认定 中国的填海造岛行为是非法的
also it ruled that China's land reclamation is illegal
这也与裁定领土和主权有关
which had something to do with territory and sovereignty.
简而言之 仲裁庭对主权做出了裁定
So the court, in a nutshell, ruled on sovereignty
但却伪装成 是在裁决其他事务
in the disguise of ruling on other things
即使文字上(表面上)没有 但这实质上就是违反了联合国海洋法公约
which violated the spirit, if not text, of UNCLOS.
另外 请容许我补充一下 公约第295条说
Also if I may add, article 295 of UNCLOS said
争议各方 应该在一方寻求仲裁解决前
parties to a dispute should exhaust “local remedies”,
尽量采用“当地救济原则”(法律术语 即双边谈判)
meaning bilateral negotiations,
而菲律宾没有这样做
before a party goes to the court and the Philippines did not do that.
瓦格纳： 我们可以大玩文字游戏
We can talk about wordsmithing all we want.
但最终发生的是
At the end of the day, what's happening is
中国声称对中国南海的一大片区域拥有主权
China is claiming sovereignty over an enormous swaths of the South China Sea
而除了中国 没有人同意这一点
and no one but China agrees with it.
这有点像 任何其他国家说 你看
It would be a bit like any other country saying you know
我就是喜欢 这一片水 这些岛屿
I just like those bits of water and those islands
我觉得我应该说它们是我的
and I think I will claim them for myself.
至于寻求双边谈判
In terms of seeking local remedies,
在这个问题上 有许多国家也是声索国
well, many of the countries that are also party to this
改的地方：并寻求与中国展开过双边谈判
issue have sought local remedy with China
但在这方面 中国一直表现的不情不愿
but China has not been very forthcoming in that regard.
我认为 这此仲裁是国际法力量的证明
I think it is a testament to the power of international law
证明诸如菲律宾等小国家 可以用这种方式 对抗向中国这样的大国
that small countries like the Philippines can take on the Goliath like China
并取得胜利
in this manner and prevail.
现在 仲裁庭作出了这样的裁决
Now the court ruled the way that it did not
并不是因为这是大卫(神话中的小男生)对歌利亚(神话中的巨人)的战斗
because it's David against Goliath, the court ruled
而是因为仲裁庭经过仔细研究
because it took a very close look at the issues
认为(中方的观点)是不合理的 站不住脚的
and it said this is unreasonable and it does not stand
而除中国 没人同意(这种自我脑补出来的事实)
and no one besides China agrees (with its own versions of reality)
王冠：事实上 你说的是没有西方国家同意中国的观点
Wang Guan: In fact, no western country supported China's point of view.
但是 有好几十个中东 非洲和东欧的国家
There are dozens of countries that supported China across the middle east,
支持中国
Africa and Eastern Europe.
这些国家支持中国
Those countries support China
是因为 它们没有相信西方国家所兜售的故事
because they are not sold with the western narrative of the issue.
在这个问题上 西方版本的故事 太有趣了
Western narrative of the issue is very interesting
在叙事上 他们非常简单化的对此事进行了选择性报道
in that they framed the issue very simplistically
就好像 菲律宾对中国的比赛结果是1比而且中国不愿意遵循国际法
as if the Philippines 1 China 0 and China is not willing to abide by international laws.
但是 我不知道有多少西方的编辑和记者
But I am not sure how many western editors and reporters
仔细读过联合国海洋法公约
read UNCLOS chapter for chapter or word for word,
如果他们读过了 他们甚至会质疑自己得出这个结论的前提
and then if they did, they would question the premise of their argument.
那就是 海牙常设仲裁庭PCA
That is, whether or not the arbitration court, the PCA,
能不能绕着弯裁决主权
has the jurisdiction to, indirectly, rule on sovereignty in the first place.
还有 我不知道有多少西方记者和编辑
Also I am not sure how many western reporters
与不同于西方观点的法律学者深度交流过 并引用他们说过的话
and editors really talked to legal scholars or quoted them from the other side.
那些学者们会指出
Those scholars would point out that
实际上 很多法律原则支持的是中方观点 例如'禁止反悔'
many legal principles actually supported Beijing's point of view, such as Estoppel.
这个词的意思是 如果一个国家 比如越南 在70年代
Meaning if a country like Vietnam did in the 70s,
曾经承认中国的南海主权 正如越南时任总理范文同承认过的
once recognized China's claim, as their Prime Minister Pham Van Dong did,
那么 他们不应该在几十年后 宣布放弃或撤回他们的 立场
they are not supposed to recant or withdraw their arguments decades later.
我们在西方媒体上 看不到这种观点
We don't see that in the western press.
另外 西方媒体在这件事的报道上 断章取义
Also the western press framed the issue without context, you know
仿佛 中国突然间开始在浩瀚的海洋里倾倒砂石 填海造陆
as if China started sands and gravels in the middle of the ocean out of nowhere.
他们忘记了一个简单的事实 在二战之后
They forgot the simple fact their own presidents,
美国自己的总统 富兰克林·罗斯福和艾森豪威尔
Franklin Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower once sent naval vessels
要么曾派军舰帮助中国 收复南海岛屿主权 要么曾默认中国的声索
to help China reclaim those islands after WWII and once tacitly recognized China's claims.
我们没有看到任何相关的报道
We don't see any of that.
所以 是的 西方媒体是相对自由的 但自由的媒体也是有偏见的
So yes, the western press are relatively free but free press have biases.
是的 他们注明每一处新闻来源
Yes they attribute each and every one of their sources.
但他们的来源是谁
But who are their sources?
他们多少次打心眼里 相信过非西方的新闻来源
How many non-western sources do they take seriously?
是的 他们把带感情色彩的形容词都注明出处(显示客观中立)
And yes, they attribute each and every one of their adjectives,
但他们精心挑选和构建的名词呢？
but how about their carefully-crafted nouns,
例如 “共产主义中国” 或者 “具有法律约束力的仲裁”
such as Communist China or legally-binding arbitration.
正是这些看似客观的名词迎合和强化了 西方的观众已有的成见
Those nouns really reinforce and feed into the stereotypes of the western audience.
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：纽约的丹尼尔，看起来你想发言
Peter Lavelle: Daniel, looked like you wanted to jump in in New York.
你请讲
Go ahead.
丹尼尔：我想问王冠几个问题
well I'd like to ask Wang to respond to a couple of issues.
在一些场合下
One is there are a number of instances
中国加入了联合国海洋公约法
where China has basically joined a legal regime
成为签署国之一 从1982年签署的那天起
UNCLOS being one of them and it has signed on the very day in 1982
公约就已成为一份法律文书
when it became a legal instrument.
然而 在很多场合中
And yet there's been numerous instances
中国一直在说 你看 实际上我不喜欢这部分法律
where China has said you know I don't actually like that portion of the law.
我不喜欢那个裁定 所以 我不会遵守它
I don't that ruling. So I am not gonna abide by it.
所以 我想问的是 如果结果不是你想要的 你就不打算去遵守它
So I would ask what is the point of signing on to the law
既然如此 那签署公约还有什么意义
if you don't intend to abide by it when it doesn't go the way you want it to go.
这是一个问题
That's one issue....
王冠: 好的 丹尼尔 这世上有个事情叫做 保留条款
Wang Guan: Well, Daniel, there is such a thing as reservations to a treaty.
丹尼尔：让我先讲完我的观点
.....exclusive economic zone Let me just finish my point.
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：丹尼尔 你继续
Go ahead Daniel Go ahead
是的 但你们都没有参加仲裁
Yes but you are not even showing up at this party.
你们甚至都没有出席仲裁庭的仲裁？
You are not even party to this particular issue in this court.
另一个问题是专属经济区
The other issue is exclusive economic zones.
这应该是向外200海里
That is supposed to go out 200 nautical miles.
黄岩岛 美济礁
The Scarborough Shoal, the Mischief Reef,
他们都位于菲律宾海岸120海里处
they are 120 miles from the Philippine coast,
而中国南海上 离中国最近这些岛屿 和中国的距离是近300海里
the closest of any of these islands in the South China Sea to China is almost 300 miles.
比如西沙群岛离中国的海南岛的距离
The Paracel island from the Hainan island in the South.
所以 这些都不在中国的专属经济区范围内
So none of these are within China's exclusive economic zone
但美济礁和黄岩岛 显然在菲律宾的专属经济区内
yet Mischief Reef and Scarborough Shoal are clearly in Philippines' exclusive economic zone.
中国都不理会这些事实
It doesn't seem to matter to China.
但如果这件事 中国和菲律宾的位置互换一下
But if this was done to China and the roles were reversed,
我能想象中国肯定不会太高兴
I can imagine they wouldn't be very happy.
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：让王冠来回答一下这个问题
Peter Lavelle: Let's try to get Wang to respond to that.
华盛顿的王冠 请讲
Wang in Washington. Go head.
王冠：那么 丹尼尔 如果按地理接近原则来裁定
Well, Daniel, if geographical proximity is the rule,
想想美属北马里亚纳群岛 或美属关岛吧
think about Northern Mariana Islands or Guam.
他们离西太平洋国家 比离美国大陆似乎近了不少
They are a little closer to countries in the western Pacific than to continental United States.
还有 你提到中国为什么没有参加这次仲裁
Also when you raised the point of why China did not attend this arbitration.
这是因为 国际法中有个原则 叫 保留条款
It is because there is such a thing in international law called reservations.
很多公约都有保留条款
There are reservations to treaties.
中国 以及其他约30多个西方国家
China, along with some 30 other western countries,
丹麦 阿根廷 英国 都签署这些保留条款
Denmark, Argentina, the UK, signed this reservation saying that
意思是 不允许仲裁庭对主权进行仲裁
it does not allow the court to rule on sovereignty.
这就是为什么 中国从一开始就没有参加仲裁
That's why China did not attend the arbitration in the first place.
而中国绝不是第一个这样做的国家
China is hardly the first country to do that.
西方也有国家这么做了
It has companies in the west.
丹尼尔·瓦格纳：但遗憾的是 对中国来说 面子上并不好看
Daniel Wagner: And unfortunately, for China, China is not gonna look very good.
因为会被视为 对国际法的藐视
Because it's gonna be perceived as thumbing its nose at international law.
我想补充最后一点 如果裁决有利于中国
I would add one last thing, which is, if this ruling had come out in favor of China.
我觉得 政府会赞扬裁决结果
I suspect that the government would be praising it
赞美这个机构及其智慧
and praising the body and all of its wisdom
而不是彻底地批评 这有点像熊孩子的表现
instead of criticizing it outright and just sort of more or less acting like an intransigent child.
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：这不是很正常的政治反应吗
Peter Lavelle: That's how politics works, okay.
王冠：当越南1976年在南沙群岛建立第一个机场跑道时
Wang Guan: When Vietnam built the first airstrip in the Spratly Islands in 1976,
华盛顿并没有急着跳出来批评越南
Washington wasn't too eager to jump to criticism of Vietnam.
当菲律宾两年后
When the Philippines did it two years later
在南沙群岛填海造陆时
by reclaiming some islands in the Spratleys,
华盛顿也没有跳出来批评菲律宾
Washington didn't jump to criticism of the Philippines
还有 当菲律宾在一艘老军舰停在仁爱礁 赖着不走的时候
and also when the Philippines grounded an old naval vessel in the Second Thomas Shoal or Ren'ai Jiao,
华盛顿还是没有跳出来指责它的盟友菲律宾
Washington again did not jump to criticism of its ally the philippines.
总统奥巴马甚至在今年四月接受《大西洋周刊》专访时
President Obama even explicitly admitted
明确承认了(美国)对中国的 遏制战略
the containment strategies (of China) in an interview with the Atlantic his April.
他的原话是 我一字不差的原引
He said and I quote, word for word,
“如果你看看我们是如何在中国南海进行操作
“if you look at how we've operated in the South China Sea.
你就知道 我们已经能够调动大部分亚洲(国家)
we have been able to mobilize most of Asia
以让中国惊讶的方式 来孤立中国
to isolate China in ways that have surprised China
而且坦白地说 这加强了我们与盟国的关系 对美国十分有利
and frankly have very much served our interest in strengthening our alliances.
因此 通过政治手段 军事部署 并利用国际法 来搞地缘政治
So in using politics, military deployment and international law,
如果这些还不是勾结起来针对中国 那我不知道什么才是
those issues. If those are not ganging up against China, I don't know what is.
丹尼尔·瓦格纳：即便如此 这也与美国无关
Daniel Wagner: It is really not about the U.S. though.
这最终与中国希望被视为怎样的国家有关
It is really ultimately about what kind of country China wants to be perceived as,
与中国想被世界视为什么样的大国有关
what kind of global leader it wants to be perceived as in the global community.
而单方面采取行动的想法
And the idea of unilaterally taking action
只说一句 “这个裁决结果早就内定了 不符合全球最高领导者的身份
and calling it a fait accompli is inconsistent with being a top leader at the table.
中国单方面地(在南海)建立了一个事实上的军事基地 然后声称属于中国
To unilaterally go and to create a de facto military base and claim it as your own
然后说 反对其他国家(在南海)的种种行为 这有点荒唐
and say what are you objecting to, that doesn't really make any sense.
王冠：美国真的需要一个新的对华战略
Wang Guan: The U.S. really needs a new strategic posture on China.
因为他们利用如保护海上通道和贸易作为借口(遏制中国)
Because they use excuses such as protecting the sea lanes and trade
但如果你看看这些事实 中国与东盟国家的贸易进行的相当好
but if you look at those facts, China and the ASEAN countries traded quite alright.
中国 作为世界上最大的贸易国
As the largest trading nation in the world, as China is,
每年通过中国南海进行的贸易额为5万亿美元
5 trillion dollar's worth of trade going through South China Sea every year.
还有 如果美国重返亚太的重点是安全问题
And also if Asia Pivot is about security issue,
那么究竟为的是什么安全问题呢 是朝鲜吗
what exactly are those security issues? On North Korea,
可朝鲜一直没能真正成为过威胁
North Korea has not been able to pull off a real existential threat.
在恐怖主义问题上吗 可是ISIS和塔利班在地球的另一端
On terrorism, ISIS and the Taliban are half a world away.
如果是为了核不扩散问题 大部分核弹头
If on non-proliferation, most of the nuclear warheads
都在在东欧和西欧... -
are eastern Europe and western Europe.
主持人 彼得·拉维尔：好的 先生们
Peter Lavelle: Okay gentlemen.
王 我必须打断一下
Wang, I have to jump in here.
你提出了一些我们无法立即回答的重要问题
You raised some very important questions we can't answer right now.
非常感谢我们在华盛顿和纽约的嘉宾
Many thanks for our guests in Washington and in New York
感谢收看我们RT节目的观众
And thanks to our viewers for watching us here on RT.
下次再见 请记住交叉辩论无比精彩
See you next time and remember Crosstalk rules.
【全文完】
翻译@空耳同传君 @欧拉伯。
本文只供学习使用。英文版权属于RT America，中文版权属于央视北美频道。
